Lucas Hendrickson: Mysterious and cool. How many things have we been drawn to because they're mysterious and cool?  Be it music or art or locations or people, there's loud and in your face and then there's laid-back and chill, but still a presence and a force.  Have a conversation with the Los Angeles-based bartender known simply as ET and you'll get a sense of mysterious and cool, and then you'll pick up on part of where he picked that up. 

 

ET: It was more of the Sinatra connection, you know, I started becoming a fan of Sinatra myself and you know, you watch a couple live concerts and doesn't take long to realize what's in his glass. 

 

Lucas: My name is Lucas Hendrickson. And on this episode of Around the Barrel, we talked to one of Jack Daniel's most visible yet mysterious brand ambassadors. We touch on cocktail culture, the keys to becoming a better mixologist for your friends, the eternal debate between bourbon and Tennessee Whiskey, and the universal fact that sometimes, less is more. Welcome back to Around the Barrel, the official podcast from the makers of Jack Daniel's. I'm your host, Lucas Hendrickson.  Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey has developed a massive following the friends around the world over the past 150 years. Some of Jack's most important friends are the bartenders and mixologists who've come up with an endless array of cocktails using Old Number 7 as the base. The L.A. based bartender and entrepreneur known as ET is one of the most compelling brand ambassadors for Jack Daniel's and his expertise and general sense of cool has been an important cog in continuing to elevate Tennessee Whiskey in the expanding universe of cocktail culture. 

 

ET: Hey, my name is ET. I am the U.S. brand ambassador for Jack Daniel's, based out in Los Angeles. 

 

Lucas: ET, thanks for joining us here on Around the Barrel. 

 

ET: My pleasure. Good to be here. 

 

Lucas: So talk a little bit about this idea of being a brand ambassador for Jack Daniel's. What does that entail? What do you do with the brand that goes alongside what you've been doing in the hospitality space for quite a while?

 

ET: Yeah. I've been in the bar business since the early 90's and you know brand ambassador is a relatively new phenomenon in the bar world. You know, when I started bartending there was no such job and then someone invented maybe the greatest job ever, at least for me, you know, it's honestly I get to travel around the country and talk about Jack Daniel's, about the history of the brand, talk about the whiskey in the bottle, talk about its relevance in culture. And you know, it's something that's always been part of my life. I think I could probably trace it back to my parents. My father was all Sinatra all the time, still is, and my mother basically raised me on Rock and Roll and you know, both those worlds meet at Jack Daniel's. So I really I kind of think that's where I got my first nod towards the brand and you know, since then it's really been the whiskey in the bottle that kept me coming back for more. 

 

Lucas: Sure. Do you ever remember in your dad's fandom of Sinatra, seeing or hearing him talk about Jack Daniel's as part of his kind of allure and his legend?

 

ET: No, you know, it was more of the Sinatra connection, you know, I started becoming a fan of Sinatra myself and you know, you watch a couple live concerts and doesn't take long to realize what's in his glass.

 

Lucas: Absolutely, tell us a little bit about your origins.  Where you came from, how you got started in the bar business, and then leading up to the day that the various things you're doing and not only as an ambassador for Jack Daniel's, but also your own your own businesses as well. 

 

ET: Yeah, I was born in Philly, and that's where my family still is, went to college in upstate New York and had an opportunity to come out to Los Angeles for work right after college and did that. And you know, it's awesome, very initial success and then it went down the hill pretty quickly so I needed a job, and there was a bar that I had gone to a few times with friends and just happened to ask if they needed someone. He said no, but drop off a resume. So the next morning I made up a fake resume of all the bars I used to drink at in college and said that I worked at them. 

 

Lucas: You put in your time. 

 

ET: Yes. I did put in my time and yeah came in and he's like, "Hey man, we fired our bar back last night. Can you start today?" I'm like, "Sure." And haven't really left that business since. You know it's again, like I said earlier it's evolved quite a bit. There's a lot of opportunity in the bar world now from actually working in the bars, to consulting, to ambassador work, to brand work, to writing about it. It's just really exploded in the past decade and it's a great thing to watch coming from the days when you know, a bartender was a bartender and there was really nowhere else to go.  Not that being a bartender is not awesome, because it's one of the best things I've ever done in my life. But you know, if you ever felt like "Hey, it's time to not get home at 3:00 in the morning five nights a week." There wasn't much else that that really prepared you for right? 

 

Lucas: We have seen in the past, certainly past decade as you said, kind of this explosion of cocktail culture around the world. What kind of trends, what kind of things do you see on the horizon for 2018, as far as cocktail culture goes? Where are we now with that, now that its a little more, for lack of a better term, mainstream? What's around the corner for that kind of culture? 

 

ET: You know, I guess it depends what city you live in, right? You're in a relatively big city. So, you know, I guess it's kind of like a learning curve for all of us behind the bar, the bigger cities, New York, San Fran, Vegas. L.A. was a little bit late to the game being as big as we are, but we saw that trend of all things cocktail and it's funny; for a minute, we all got really into everything and some people took it so far that they forgot what bartending was all about, and it only became about the cocktail versus the idea that a great cocktail is just one more tool a bartender has to make the guests happy, and I think in the cities that adopted cocktail culture first, we're getting back to that where people are realizing that hey, if customers don't enjoy their experience, they're not going to come back and keep the lights on and we're starting to see a trend towards everything being focused on the guest, so instead of a 20-minute cocktail and "watch me and look what I'm doing behind the bar." It's hey, how can I get my guest something delicious and fresh quickly and make them happy and really make sure that their experience is better leaving the bar then when they got here?

 

Lucas: Has there been kind of a swing back and forth, as you said, to the 20-minute process of making a cocktail versus the end product itself? Is there too much of a danger of leaning more one way than the other or is there a delicate balance in there that the guest then ends up with the best possible experience that they could possibly have?

 

ET: Yeah. Look, I mean you just said it, balanced. You know, that's what makes a cocktail great. There's a reason a Manhattan tastes delicious. It's balanced, the flavors work well and no one flavor is dominating the cocktail and the result is something that is really palatable for people that like whiskey drinks, especially whiskey-forward drinks. And I think, you know look, someone gives you a cocktail that you didn't really ask for and you're going to give an opinion, right? And that opinion could be "interesting." And to me that's maybe the worst description of a cocktail. "It's interesting" doesn't mean I want two of them. This is interesting means, you know... 

 

Lucas: I can see these things, I can taste these things. I don't know if I like them all together, that kind of thing

 

ET:  I think there was a big push towards trying everything, going in the kitchen and taking everything the chef had in his walk-in and trying to put it in a cocktail, and some really cool drinks and ideas came out of that process, but not everything was great. You know, I always say when I'm making cocktails, you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet. We were putting out every cocktail we thought of, you know what I mean?  And then realizing now, hey, there's a reason the Margarita is still a number one selling drink and old-fashioned and a Manhattan, a Sazerac, even a highball. There's a reason whiskey and soda, whiskey and ginger sells. It's not just because the consumers uneducated and has no palette, its because it tastes good. It's balanced and it works. It's enough of a sipper to enjoy at the bar. It's not always about you know, the most bold flavor, the most ingenious way to deliver into it a cocktail glass, sometimes hey, a beer and shot is all you want.

 

Lucas: Yeah, that's fascinating to think about the literal editing process of kind of wading through, you know, the mistakes or things that aren't quite hitting the customers palette in the way that you think they're going to, and landing on something specialized that they might like and somebody else may love, you know, some of the experiments that came along with it.  At the same time, there are those go-to's that will please the crowd and and never fail to do that. So that's fascinating thing about it, especially in this day and age where cocktail culture is very much about kind of experimentation. 

 

ET: Yeah, and I think there is a place for that still. I just think we maybe went a little too far, and now we're understanding where it should live.  And there's also I guess an addendum to that also where I've seen bartenders get asked to shake a Manhattan. Now, you know traditionally the proper way to make a Manhattan is to stir it. But if a customer came to my bar and said hey, I want a Manhattan, up, shaken until there's ice floating. Yeah. Sure. That's what you want. But I've seen bartenders, you know shame that customer into submission, and I'm like no one wins there. Right? Now, you make that person feel bad. They're not going to get the drink they wanted, and they're probably not going to tip you as well as they would have, had they got, you know, an ice rink on top of their Martini or Manhattan. So it's a shame that it had to go all the way there to come back to where we were to begin with, and just like make better cocktails.  When I started bartending, you know, we didn't have the ingredients, we didn't have the knowledge, we didn't have the internet. So we made drinks. We didn't make cocktails but people still flock to our bars. We still made lots of tips. We still made people happy and for me when the cocktail movement happened all that meant for me was I had one more one more way to make the guests happy. It wasn't the only way you know, because look, I drink Jack on the Rocks. So basically any bar I go to in the world can give me what I want, Jack Daniel's on the rocks with a soda water back, no ice. Right? Super simple order. You can't mess that up, maybe a dirty glass could mess that up or some bad ice. But you know in general it's pretty simple. And that means I'm coming to your bar not because of your immense style and production value of that cocktail, it's because I like the way I'm treated, like the music, I like the vibe. I like something about that place other than the way the drink is made, and it should be that for everything, and the person that does want that really creative fun cocktail should also be able to get that, but that's just one of the things you're getting when you walk into the door.  If you choose to spend a dollar in a bar, other than stay home and make it yourself, we owe you.  We have a responsibility to you to make that experience great in one way shape or form. 

 

Lucas: Yeah, or on multiple levels. You're looking at a kind of a holistic experience as far as that goes if you've bothered to get out of your house, even if it's on your way home from work to attempt to enjoy responsibly a finely crafted cocktail. So let's talk a little bit about what brought us both to this dance, Jack Daniel's products. You already mentioned how you like to enjoy Jack Old Number 7. What do you think are the best ways for a novice brand-new out of the shrink-wrap kind of whiskey drinker to learn to enjoy Jack Daniel's. Is it neat? Is it straight? Is it rocks? Is it mixed with something else? What do you tend to point people to when they're wanting to learn how to enjoy Jack Daniel's?

 

ET: It really depends on the person and what they're coming from, right? If somebody comes to my bar and says, hey I hear whiskey's really hot right now. I kind of want to try it, but I'm a little afraid, I feel like whiskey's, you know something that old men drink. What do I do? I'll ask them what do you normally drink now? If they say a margarita, if they say they like daiquiris, or they say they like gimlets, great. I'll probably make them a sour or a smash, which have a lot of those similar flavors and the whiskey isn't quite as dominating in the cocktail and try to ease them into it and you know, something like Gentleman Jack is a great way to showcase whiskey in a very approachable way, you know the way it's made, it's really meant to be an approachable, you know a little bit more of a lighter version of Old Number 7 or Single Barrel, and it came out at a time when people weren't really clamoring towards big bold American whiskeys and it was made to be that, and it still holds up to this day as that, on the flip side, it's also delicious neat on the rocks and a lot of people that already are whiskey drinkers are discovering it for the first time. But if you came to my bar and you said to me, hey, I'm not sure I'm a whiskey guy or girl and I'm a little scared of it, that's what I would do. I would make you a whiskey sour with Gentleman Jack or a whiskey Smash and throw in some like hey, you like strawberries. I'll make a strawberry smash, you know, you like blackberries I'll make it Blackberry Smash and give you something that you already kind of like and see if we can't ease you into a new style of cocktail or spirit. 

 

Lucas: So we have again this cocktail bar culture that has emerged over the past 10 years or so, but still people, you know, like to hang out at home and have some friends over and create for them. What are some of the tips that you would give people who just want to become better mixologists at home?

 

ET: You know, I always tell people, perfect a couple things. Right, your Aunt Edna's apple pie is the best thing on the table at Thanksgiving, Aunt Edna just nails that pie, now if you ask Aunt Edna to make you a turkey, it might be the driest thing in the world, right? She has a skill set and I think when you're a home bartender, perfect a few cocktails and be ready to make them when your guests come over and once you have that under your belt start experimenting but always have a good base because you know, you're not a bar. You don't have every ingredient under the sun and to try to do that, I feel like you're mastering nothing and when you have the ingredients for an old-fashioned or Manhattan at home are pretty simple, and then maybe hey try to make a great sour, try to make a great smash. Try to make you know something that you've liked in a bar, you know fortunately or unfortunately, we have the internet these days and you know, it's a really great resource, you know, but one thing I will tell you, never believe the first recipe you read.  Who knows who put that up there?  Even if it's from a reputable newspaper or magazine, read a few and know what you like. You know, if something sounds crazy like three ounces of simple syrup in one cocktail, you know, you're probably going down the wrong path.

 

Lucas: Or make sure that it says, you know "Serves 14" as opposed to just one. 

 

ET: Exactly. So, you know use your common sense a little bit and then try it before your friends come over. You know, maybe one night you and your wife or your husband or your boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, you know, you're having this party. So maybe the week before demo a couple drinks for each other, find out which one's awesome or really good and then tweak it to make it awesome, and then make that your signature cocktail that night. And you know, that way if people come to your house you have whiskey and soda, whiskey and ginger, but you're also offering you know, a basil smash and like, "oh, what's that? That sounds cool." And now you know how to make it perfectly because you tried it already and they're pretty impressed with you. 

 

Lucas: And, once you've done that and had your friends over and had a great time, what do you think is the best nightcap? What what drink kind of wraps everything up best in your head? 

 

ET: You know, that's a very good question. For me, it really depends on the night.  A couple nightcaps I like, I know it's the end of the night in Las Vegas if I'm drinking a White Russian. 

 

Lucas: [laughter] Yes, I can see that would be the case right there.

 

ET: Sometimes, you know, like I said, I drink Jack on the rocks, but towards the end of the night you want something a little bit milder and it's just going to kind of taste great and be that night cap for you and...

 

Lucas: ...be that signal that we're wrapping up now. We're getting ready to head to the house. Yeah, 

 

ET: You know, it's funny. There's a drink that I started doing as a nightcap and it's super simple but just works. I take one ounce of Jack Daniel's, one ounce of a really good Irish cream liqueur, and a couple dashes of, there's pecan bitters on the market now. Shake that up and I think I was calling it the "Yes, please" for a while. It was just easy and says, "hey good night, you know, I'm done."  But it's sometimes something really simple like that will just kind of be that perfect end of the evening for you. 

 

Lucas: And always, as we say over and over in print and aloud, enjoy responsibly. You know, that's always the key to all this.

 

ET: Oh, no on that, you know, I always tell people, young, old, whatever, two things.  Years and years ago, I was in Florida. My grandmom and grandfather used to live down in Miami and we were visiting and a couple friends from college happen to also have family in Florida. So we all met up for New Year's Eve and we were getting ready to go out at a friend's house and his dad came in and sat us down and he said, "You know what boys?" he goes. "It's New Years Eve, but that's no reason to have more of a good time than you normally would have on any other night of the year."  And we joked about it forever and we still joke about it, but it's true. And you know for me the going out and having fun with your friends, it's a marathon not a sprint, right? There's no points extra points for drinking too much too fast. It's just going to ruin your night. 

 

Lucas: And probably many other people's nights too. 

 

ET: Exactly, so responsibility, you know. Yes, we say and I agree but the reason behind it I think sometimes resonates more with people like hey, have a great evening, not just a great hour. And have a fun time with your friends from the time you go out to the time you go home and you know, it's great too about especially out here in L.A. having all these ride share options, for a city where parking is a nightmare, who needs the hassle and you're going to be safer. 

 

Lucas: Exactly. The endless debate about bourbon versus whiskey and where Jack Daniel's fits within that spectrum, it goes on and on and on and we are not going to solve it today obviously, but are there certain cocktails certain whiskey cocktails were bourbon works better than a Tennessee Whiskey or vice versa?  What fits well with the distinct characteristics of bourbon versus Tennessee Whiskey? And this is really just me asking you what your favorite whiskey drink is, basically. 

 

ET:  Well first I guess to start that debate we have to go back to make one point: All bourbon is whiskey. You know, and if we're just debating American whiskeys the the two premier styles are bourbon whiskey and Tennessee whiskey, both being whiskey's and they both start out exactly the same. By U.S. law, Tennessee whiskey is defined as a straight bourbon made in Tennessee. And if that was where it ended, Tennessee whiskey would be bourbon. Because bourbon can be made anywhere in the U.S. so just because it's in Tennessee wouldn't actually change anything about the whiskey but what Jack learned as a kid from Nearest Green and Dan Call that we still do today is the reason Jack Daniel's is Tennessee whiskey, it's charcoal mellowed.  And the way we charcoal mellow is really what changes the flavor profile of Jack Daniel's into Tennessee whiskey and Tennessee state law is what defines that one extra step that you must, you know, be mellowed or touch charcoal.  And every Tennessee whiskey distiller is different, the way the Jack Daniel Distillery does it I find is unique even in the category. You know, we hand make sugar maple charcoal by burning sugar maple wood for about two to three hours until it's 99 point something percent pure carbon, we grind it up and hard pack it into 10-foot vats and bring in our new make Jack Daniel's, and literally drop by drop it hits the top of that charcoal takes about two to three days to make its way to the bottom and we put that whiskey in the barrel, we're now making Tennessee whiskey. And you know the real magic to me that happens is on that charcoal. It adds no color. It actually adds no flavor, what it does: it pulls out things. It's, for lack of more science, it's a takeaway process, not a put-in process.  And it takes away some of that corn aroma that you get on bourbons and not-mellowed Tennessee whiskies, takes away some of the corn oils, it takes away some of the impurities, it's very very hard to measure it scientifically what's different. But your taste buds and your palate knows, if you if you sip un-charcoal mellowed new-make Jack Daniel's and then sip charcoal mellowed new-make Jack Daniels, pre barrel, you can tell it's not the same whiskey. and in terms of cocktails, I can't tell you what the best old-fashioned is, whether it's a hundred and seven proof bourbon or Jack Daniel's Single Barrel or Jack Rye, that's up to you. But in terms of one thing I find kind of unique about Tennessee whiskey that surprises a lot of people when I bring it up, until they try it and trust me, is Tiki cocktails. You know, all aged rum, not all but a lot of aged rum, is aged in used American Oak barrels.  As Bourbon and Tennessee whiskey, we can only age our spirits in those barrels one time, and then you know at Jack we try to recycle, repurpose, reuse, everything.  So, barrels we can use, we do, for some of our tequilas and other products, and you know we sell a lot as well as making other products with it, but if some rum is being aged in American Oak and Jack is the biggest American whiskey, you could argue that a lot of those rums are aged in Jack barrels. And because of charcoal mellowing, which you know, the simplest way to really describe it is it's mellowing some of those big grain flavors you get in a bourbon, where a corn rye and malted barley whiskey so the mellowing kind of mellows and rounds out some of those grainy finishes, which allows for some of those barrel flavors to shine. You hear people talk all the time at whiskey tastings. "Oh, I taste vanilla, I taste caramel, butterscotch, I taste tobacco, I taste this." Obviously, none of that's actually put in the whiskey, right?  It's illegal.  But it comes from the natural sugars that are caramelized in the wood when we char and toast our barrels. I believe some of those flavors shine a little bit brighter in Jack Daniel's Tennessee whiskey because of our charcoal mellowing process. And if you think about it, going back to Tiki, finally, if rum is aged in those barrels, they're getting some of those same flavors. Now rum is a sugar cane spirit. It's slightly sweeter anyway than a whiskey.  So Tiki drinks sometimes depending on how they're made or what the drink is, can can skew a little bit sweeter when you use a whiskey and especially a Jack Daniel's whiskey in place of rum. It's not going to take you too far away from the drink that you were intending to make but it's going to give you a slightly different profile, and I'm not proposing that rum bars start becoming whiskey tiki bars, right? But hey, if you're gonna have 30 rum drinks, why not have one Tennessee whiskey Tiki cocktail, so your guests are like "What is that?" and you could kind of give them a little fun education about the flavors of cocktails and then it's something different to slip in there. So there's not just a one note bar and, you know, I make a drink now, I call it a Black Tai. T-A-I as a double entendre because Jack Daniel wore that black tie all the time. And also a Mai Tai is a big popular umbrella drink, so I'll sub Jack Daniel's for rum and then I'll use a little bit of our Barrel proof on top and you know, it's been really popular and it just kind of supports that theory that Jack can work in non-traditional whiskey cocktails.

 

Lucas: ET thank you for your time, sir. I'm sure we will hit you up for your expertise many many times going forward and have safe travels, will talk to you again Around the Barrel. 

 

ET: Appreciate it. Great to be here. Thank you so much.

 

Lucas: Around the Barrel is the official podcast of the Jack Daniel Distillery. Follow the podcast on the web at JackDaniels.com/podcast, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate, and review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you gather your on-demand audio.  Always remember, with great podcast and great whiskey, please enjoy responsibly. Join us next time for more conversations Around the Barrel. Your friends at Jack Daniel's remind you to drink responsibly. Jack Daniel's and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks, copyright 2018, Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof distilled and bottled by Jack Daniel Distillery Lynchburg, Tennessee.  Around the Barrel is intended for listeners 21 years of age and older.