Around the Barrel - Transcript: Ep 024 Dan Dunn

 

Dan Dunn: Jack Daniel's was a relatively small brand and then along comes Frank Sinatra, and Frank walks out on stage and calls it the nectar of the gods and away we go.

Lucas Hendrickson: Observing, writing, and speaking about the spirits world is a very serious business. Well, some of the time. On this episode, we talk with Dan Dunn, author, comedy writer, podcaster, pundit, and professional imbiber over the past two decades.

He tells us what it's like to have part of your life turned into a situation comedy, how not to start counting paychecks before they come in, and how circling back just causes more traffic jams Around the Barrel.

Welcome to the season two finale of Around the Barrel, the official podcast from the makers of Jack Daniel's. I'm your host, Lucas Hendrickson. 

If there's been an unofficial thread running through season two, it's been talking to folks with the “greatest job in the world.” Dan Dunn has been paid to travel, have cocktails, and write about that experience for more than 20 years. But that's not been his only claim to fame. 

He's written comedy for some of the most famous, and famously subversive franchises on television, and had one of his books turned into a sitcom pilot, a process that landed him a real life satellite radio gig. 

Dan’s spending his days right now on a podcast called "What We're Drinking with Dan Dunn". It's part spirits journalism, part stream of consciousness, part celebrity interview, and part therapy session, perfectly paired with a glass in hand.

Dan: Hi, my name is Dan Dunn. I host the "What We're Drinking with Dan Dunn" podcast. I'm also the author of a few books and I've been covering the adult beverage beat for going on 20 years now. I'm from Philadelphia, originally, but now I make my home in the main streets of Venice Beach, California. Look out!

Lucas: Dan Dunn, welcome to Around the Barrel. 

Dan: Lucas, thanks for having me man. 

Lucas: First off, how would you – given the opportunity – how would you characterize your career? It seems pretty multifaceted. Are you a journalist? Are you an author? Are you an entertainer? Are you a professional imbiber? What? Tell – give us some context on where all you've been across this career.

Dan: Yes! Wow. Well, you know, I would say I'm a bit of a dilettante. You know, I've dabbled in a lot of different things, but I – my career in the spirits, the drinking space – began way back in 1999. I was invited to go on a trip to Scotland to tour the Hebrides to write for a magazine that's not even around anymore. 

And I was just so stunned. I was so naive. I didn't understand the concept of a press trip. So, when the editor presented it to me, I said, “So, wait. Let me get this straight. They're going to fly me over to Scotland to drink whiskey and I have to write a thousand words on it?”

“Yes.” 

“And you're going to pay me for that? Alright.” 

So, that's what happened. And then about a year – not even a year later, I did another gig where I went to Turin, Italy, for the Martini Grand Prix of Bartending put on by Martini & Rossi.

And so I was there and some of the other media people that were there included: Dale DeGroff, who's arguably one of the most famous bartenders in the world; a guy by the name of Terry Sullivan, who was the booze spirits columnist for GQ magazine – he was writing a column called Mixology before that word got beaten to death; Gaz Regan, who at the time was still Gary Regan and his wife Marty, who at the time – who also wrote a bunch of books; and then me. 

So, it was kind of like that Sesame Street thing, you know, like, “One of these kids does not belong,” and it was you. 

So, I remember going out on the streets of Turin that night, one of the nights, with Dale and everybody, and we went to Cafe Torino, which is a very famous bar, especially in the history of the Negroni.

I'm not going to talk about the Negroni because it gets talked about too much.

Lucas: You think?

Dan: But Dale took me in there. I had my very first Negroni, and I didn't know anything, Lucas. I didn't know anything about spirits or that world. And I remember Dale was tasting me through Amaro and different things, and he was telling me how, “It's coming, man. It's coming to America. You're going to see it.” 

And I remember looking at him going, “Oh, this poor guy has no idea. This is never going to take over for the Sex on the Beach, you know?” And that's what happened, man. 

And then I got back to the states, and maybe a year or two later, I started writing for a newspaper chain called Metro International Newspapers. They have free dailies all over the world. 

And I threw in this idea of doing a drinks column, and I remember the editor said to me, “So, wait, you mean you're just going to go out drinking and write about it?”

I said, “No, it's kind of like a food column, except for drinks, cocktails and spirits and whatnot.” And he kind of looked at me like I was crazy, and he said, “Well, if you want to do it, okay, but I can't pay you anything extra for that.”

And I started doing it. It was called The Imbiber, and that was where it kind of started for me. 

Lucas: Gotcha. And now, you know, you have newspaper, chains even, that have drinks columnists. 

Dan: By the way, for your fans out there who – younger fans who don't know what a newspaper is, it's words on paper. Let’s clarify.

Lucas: Oh yeah, that’s true. We might have to do some education on that. A paper is a hard copy, you know – it's an object. It actually exists in the real world. 

But, so leading up to that, I mean, what kind of led you, other than perhaps just, you know, personal interest, into writing about spirits? What was your work like leading up to that in 1999?

Dan: Well, you know, I did a – I lived in Aspen, Colorado, and I worked for – I was friends and helped work with Hunter S. Thompson. So, I was kind of in that camp. 

I wrote a newspaper column in Aspen that was very popular, and that took me to Phoenix, Arizona, where I was writing – it was – I wrote a humor column, and then I also wrote a city political column down at the Tribune in Phoenix. 

So, here's the thing about my drinks writing: it's really kind of a humor column disguised as drinks writing. So, that's really where – my sensibilities have gone in that direction. 

And so I never really looked at myself as, you know, say someone like Dave Wondrich or Wayne Curtis or somebody – Simonson – these guys that are just really fantastic spirits writers. I am not that, but I know more than most people about spirits. But that said, I think my forte is probably more creative. 

You know what I'm good at? Writing about myself. Very good at it. 

Lucas: There you go. There you go. 

Dan: Fantastic at writing about myself. 

Lucas: And getting people to pay for it – that's usually the biggest challenge. 

Dan: People say to me, “How did you get into writing?” and I say, “I didn't. I got into bitching and writing it down.” That’s kind of what I did. 

Lucas: So, that said, what has changed in your mind in kind of the American, you know, adult beverage world in the 20 years you've been looking at it, while also looking at yourself and writing about yourself? What kind of trends have you seen kind of go up and down, and where are we sitting right now as far as cocktail and alcohol culture in the U.S.?

Dan: Oh my. I mean, it's evolved to – I can't even believe what's going on. First of all, when I started doing this, you know, the biggest new invention was ice. You know, that's how far we've come. 

No, seriously, though, when I started doing this, there was a handful of people who were writing and covering spirits. There were no blogs. There were no podcasts. There were – nobody was doing any radio show. There was nothing. Nobody was. And so I'm really happy to have been in on it early on, and I've since gotten left behind, but that's okay. 

Yeah, so when we started doing it, I remember going – you know, I'm sure you've talked about Tales of the Cocktail on the show, which is one of the biggest festivals in the world. And I remember going to the early days of Tales and you'd see everybody that was there in one day. And now it's like going to Coachella, you know, and there's good and bad that go with that.

Obviously I, you know, no one could have imagined – I mean, look, if you look at Jack Daniel's, there's a great example. You know, Jack Daniel's was a relatively small brand and then along comes Frank Sinatra, you know?

Lucas: Yep.

Dan: And Frank walks out on stage and calls it the nectar of the gods and away we go. And that's kind of what happened. 

I mean, you can really kind of trace the same thing, if you want to call it the craft cocktail revolution – you can kind of trace that back to a few people, you know, just like you can trace it to Frank and maybe Keith Richards and some of these cool guys that put Jack on the map.

Same thing here. You know, you had the Audrey Saunders, you had the Dale DeGroffs, Tony Abou-Ganims, and these guys were evangelists of well-made cocktails and great environments. And they kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. And then all of a sudden everybody bought in, and now you get to pay $20 for your blood and sand. 

Lucas: Right. So, let's talk about kind of your current project, "What We're Drinking with Dan Dunn", on the Starburns Audio network as part of all that. But this certainly isn't your first foray into audio. 

You were hosting a show on Sirius XM for a number of years, had another podcast on that same network called "Drinky Fun Time". What's your, you know, level of excitement about talking about spirits in this audio space, in podcasting? What's driving you to continue to do that?

Dan: Because it's – you don't get carpal tunnel syndrome doing this. You know, writing doesn't pay anymore. That's probably part of it. But no, you know, it's great to sit down with people and just talk to them about it, and you never know what's going to come up. 

And, you know, a lot of my shows – I did a podcast, I guess the first podcast, and I've done a lot of them, so I’m trying – the first one I did was probably with Zane Lamprey. Zane used to host "Three Sheets".

And Zane and I had a show and that was a lot of fun, and there's always been sort of a celebrity element to it. We had a bunch of people on that one. 

And then I got a – so, where I guess that really took hold for me was my book “Living Loaded.” A few years ago, Fox bought the book, and we made it into a TV pilot. I wrote it with the guys from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia", okay?

So, everybody's excited about this. It looks like the show is going to go. It's going to be on the air. And my agents at the time reached out to Sirius XM, and the show involved a character named Dan – me – who had a radio show about drinking.

And Larry Wilmore played my sidekick, and I wasn't – it wasn’t me that – Donald Sutherland was in it. It was a lot of fun. Let me drop some more names here.

But anyway, so my agents reached out to Sirius and pitched them on the idea of me actually doing a show. So, you know, the synergy there would be, “Oh, we have the real show, and then there's the one on TV.” 

And it was great until the real show didn't happen, and then Sirius didn't care that much. But I'll tell you what, doing that Sirius show was a lot of – I mean we had – I'm still stunned at – it amazes me, like the level of people that would want to talk to me, because I'm like, “If you’d just get to know me, you'd never do the show.”

But it was like Kurt Russell was on that show, Hall and Oates, the cast of Sunny, I mean, just so many people. And then we did – I left that and I went on and did "Drinky Fun Time" with my friend Emma. 

And we did that for Starburns, and we had – our first guest was Anthony Bordain. Our second guest was Dan Harmon. Guillermo del Toro. Halsey. G-Eazy. And what's amazing, and I'm sure you know this, is it – there are so many celebrities that are in the spirits game and the wine game now. Makes it easier to get big name guests. You know, that that really helps.

Lucas: That’s true. You know, you have had quite an interesting career. This latest book, “American Wino,” has gotten some nibbles in that, you know, next stage world as well. I’m understanding there's some interest – 

Dan: Yeah. A lot of meetings.

Lucas: A lot of meetings. 

Dan: Hollywood meetings are the best. You go in and you sit there, and everybody tells you how amazing you are and incredible, and then it ends and they say, “Alright, well let's keep in touch. Let's circle back.” 

Circle back. Everybody circling back. That's why traffic is so bad in L.A., because everybody's circling back all the time. It’s like, “Yeah. Let's circle back,” which means, “Okay, see you never.” But it's nice to meet these people, and, you know, it's a good tale to tell at cocktail parties. 

Lucas: What haven’t you done in the whiskey/beverage world that you'd like to tackle? What kind of things still interest you? 

Dan: Okay. I got one for you about this world. 

Lucas: Alright. 

Dan: I have never been to the Jack Daniel Distillery. 

Lucas: Aww, man. 

Dan: What in the world is going on here? I think I've been to almost every distillery in the United States. I have not been to – now, I will say this. In Jack Daniel's – I'm talking about Jack like he's still around and he's making decisions for the company.

Lucas: Well, trust me, the spirit is there still, obviously.  

Dan: In the company's defense, I've been invited. And I do need to get there because – and I mean that. When you talk about, you know, things I haven't done, certainly one of them is to see these temples of spirits in this country, and certainly Lynchburg has to rate right up there in the top five or so. 

So, I'm going to get there one day, and I'm going to tour that place. I'm going to give you my suggestions on how to make it so that the brand takes off, you know. 

Lucas: Well, yeah, because it is in dire need of extra, you know, all of our attempts and efforts to elevate the brand. 

Dan: I’m going to wear a Jack Daniel's t-shirt with the sleeves cut off because, by the way, I'm from Philadelphia, and we don't like sleeves. We do not like sleeves in Philadelphia. And I feel that there's a kinship there with people down in Lynchburg as well. The sleeves hold you back. 

Lucas: Can be. You'd fit right in. Yeah. You could be like our friend Mark McCallum, the chief brands officer there, and learn how to whittle down in Lynchburg. You know, that's a goal when you go down there as well. So, perhaps we can join you on that journey sooner than later heading down to Lynchburg. 

Dan: Right. I would love that. 

Lucas: It is quite the experience. It is obviously a world-class production facility nestled into this tiny little Tennessee town that continues to have the charm that it has for decades. So, there's this feeling that, you know, time has stopped. And yet, you know, it keeps up with all the modern parts of trying to produce in great quantities this fantastic liquid.

Dan: See? That was poetic. I'm telling you man. NPR. I’m going to have to get you on this. I'm going to have to step in here and make some calls.

Lucas: Do I need an agent? So, yeah, give me a – we’ll circle back on that and talk about that later. 

Dan: Circle back. See, you’re getting it. 

Lucas: Do you have a favorite cocktail and/or do you have a favorite expression of Jack Daniel's itself? What fires you up about Jack Daniel's as a drink or drink element? 

Dan: Hmm. Okay. Well, what I like about Jack is it tastes really good in Coca-Cola. I love it. I'm telling you, you know, there's just something –

Lucas: Again, a classic, all-American kind of thing going on there.

Dan: Absolutely. I mean, what's cooler than to walk up and go, “Give me a Jack and coke”? It just sounds – I can tell you – so, you know, I'm friends – I feel like I haven't dropped a name in a while, so I'll drop another one. One of my good friends is Neil Everett from SportsCenter. 

And as you might know, one of his famous calls when a guy hits a home run – he says, “Bartender – Jack!” you know, and everybody gets that. You can say that on a national sports show and everybody that's watching that gets it because who doesn’t like Jack Daniel's?

Lucas: Absolutely.

Dan: Don't answer that. 

Lucas: We don’t want to talk to those folks, if they don’t.

Dan: Yeah. I think Jack Daniel's is just, you know, I'm not going to – I personally am not going to mix it with a lot of stuff. I like it with Jack and Coke, but I like to just drink Jack. I like to just, you know, drink it neat. I mean, how do you like to drink it? 

Lucas: My favorite, personally, is just the Jack and a little ginger ale or ginger beer kind of thing. Do a little Tennessee Mule type thing. And then also, you know – but give it to me straight with just a couple of ice cubes and I am good to go. 

So, yeah. I like to say – people will ask, “What's your favorite Jack Daniel's?” and I'll say, “My next one.” So, you go from there. 

Dan: Yeah. I mean, you know, the Single Barrel – I've had this – obviously, I wrote for Robb Report for a long time, and so I get all these products to try. 

And I've been a big fan of the Single Barrel Collection, you know, the hundred proof. It's got a little kick to it. You know, I'm also a fan of the Gentleman Jack. When did that come out? That wasn't that long ago, right? 

Lucas: That was 1988, so the 30th anniversary was last year. 

Dan: So, relatively. I'm 90, so it wasn't that long ago. 

Lucas: It does – and still in the eyes of the public and also, you know, with what we do – it was the next thing after Old No. 7. You know, there was a 120 year gap between a new expression coming out like that. 

So, in the grand scheme of the company, in the grand scheme of whiskey, it's still a relatively new product. But it has been a good 30 years since that came out. And obviously now with the Tennessee Fire, the Tennessee Honey, the new rye expression – 

Dan: So, how do those do? I'm curious. As if you’re going to be, “Ah, they’re tanking.” No, I mean, the Tennessee Honey – people really get into that? The Tennessee Honey?

Lucas: Certainly as a mixer element, things like that. 

Dan: But that’s a liqueur, right? That’s not – that's just blended with Jack. 

Lucas: Yeah, correct. So, it’s a liqueur base, but with Old No. 7 blended in. 

Dan: Okay. Gotcha. 

Lucas: So, and we've talked about this before on this show with folks like Jeff Arnett and Chris Fletcher, the distillery team. You know, Jack Daniel's isn't always the first to market in a segment. 

They certainly weren't the first one to put kind of a cinnamon-infused whiskey out on the market, but frequently when they do, when they identify something like that and put a product out, it's going to be the best version of that that it can be. 

Obviously when you start with Old No. 7 as a base on those things, you're going to get a product that's going to taste great and it's going to be successful in that above and beyond, just the brand recognition on it. So, all that said, do you have a favorite relatively safe for work Jack Daniel's story from your repertoire? 

Dan: Okay. Well, I would say it's more sort of like advice that, you know, a tip that I can offer to people. So, I'm from Philadelphia originally, but I have visited many a bar below the Mason-Dixon line in my years.

And I – not so much now, but back in the day, you know, it was – you had to be careful down in the South if you’re a Philly guy and you're going down to a bar in Tennessee somewhere. 

And what I learned is, and we kind of touched this earlier, there's two things you can – the key to survival is to say as little as possible, right, as we learned in first grade. Zero, I guess, is as little as possible. But if I could get away with not speaking at a bar down there – and I'm talking about like a down-home bar in the South where everybody's going to recognize I don't belong, right?

You know, obviously, the easiest way to out yourself as a Yankee is you open your mouth because the northern accent is hard to miss. But you're at a bar, so you're going to need to order a beverage, you know, and so there’s – you have to be able to affect a believable drawl, I think. 

That's why there's only two things you can order down there. And one, of course, is Jack. “Jack.” Right? You don't know. And then the other one is Bud. “Bud. Jack and a Bud.” 

Don't try to put the “weiser” on the end or, God forbid, “Light,” because, yeah. I think if Tom Hanks taught us anything in Forrest Gump, it's that even the finest northern-bred actors can screw up the southern accent.

So, that's the thing I learned. That's the thing about Jack, is if you're somewhere, you're a northerner, you're down in the South and you're a little worried about, you know, red state, blue state, something like that, “Jack. Bud. Jack and Bud.” See? Do it. 

Lucas: Takes care of your imbibing needs for the night. 

Dan: Yes. There you go. 

Lucas: Wrapping up, what else can we look for from you in the relatively near future? What other projects are you working on right now? 

Dan: Oh, geez. Well, you know, again, "What We're Drinking" is kind of my main focus at this point. I've got a bunch of really cool guests coming up. We've got Aisha Tyler coming on. We've got Walton Goggins. We've got Kurt Russell, Steven Soderbergh. Have I dropped enough names?

Lucas: I'm getting a back ache from having to bend over and pick all those names up.

Dan: Bono. No, I’m making it up. Bono is not coming on, as far as I know. But yeah, "What We're Drinking", you know, it's a weekly podcast. I do that. That's a lot of fun. 

I'm working – kicking around another idea for a book, and as I said, I'm out circling back at meetings. A lot of circling back. 

Lucas: A lot of circling back.

Dan: Doing that. Oh, tons of circling back. Having people lie to me, my agents, producers. It’s great. That takes a lot of time. You don't realize how much time and energy being lied to all day long takes. It really – you know, so it can get exhausting. 

So, that's kind of what I got going on right now. And I write for Bourbon Plus magazine. You know that magazine? I write a column in there, and I believe Jack Daniel's has been featured in there. 

Lucas: I imagine so.

Dan: That's part of the plus part. It's not just bourbon, it’s bourbon plus. Yeah, there you go. 

Lucas: That's the description of Jack Daniel's. It's not just bourbon. Although, again, we had many conversations that – there are ways in which it can be typified as that, but then you had – anyway, that's a long, long, and overdrawn fight, that kind of stuff. 

I was just reminded, if you do get your Lynchburg trip underway, please extend the invite also to Neil Everett. We would love to talk to him as well and get the SportsCenter side of things. 

Dan: Maybe we'll come down there and we'll do my show with you and Neil. 

Lucas: That'd be terrific. Oh my. Well, I would just be a fly on the wall at that point probably. But I've watched many an episode of SportsCenter from L.A., so, yeah, that'd be a blast. 

Dan, where can people find you on the social medias, if they want to follow what you're doing, obviously, with the show and everything else?

Dan: Sure. I'm on Instagram and Twitter @theimbiber. As you know, Lucas, to imbibe is to drink. Yeah, find me there. And Facebook – I'm on there somewhere. Dan Dunn. Look for me. 

And, of course, you know, on the podcast every week. And I look forward to having – I'm going to do a Jack show soon.

Lucas: Let’s do it. 

Dan: There’s going to be a Jack show on my podcast. I’d like to get into that some more. 

Lucas: That'd be great. Dan Dunn, thank you for joining us Around the Barrel, man. 

Dan: Thank you, man. I had a great time.

 

Lucas: Around the Barrel is the official podcast of the Jack Daniel Distillery. Follow the podcast on the web at jackdaniels.com/podcast. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you gather your on demand audio. 

 

Always remember, with great podcasts and great whiskey, please enjoy responsibly. Join us next time for more conversations Around the Barrel.

 

Your friends at Jack Daniel’s remind you to drink responsibly. Jack Daniel’s and Old No. 7 are registered trademarks. Copyright 2019, Jack Daniel’s. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. Distilled and bottled by Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around the Barrel is intended for listeners 21 years of age and older.