Around the Barrel - Transcript: Fred Minnick

 

Fred Minnick: There's not a single product that opens more doors for any American whiskey than Jack Daniel's.

 

Lucas Hendrickson: The process of enjoying whiskey engages every one of your senses. Taste might be the most mysterious and hard to define aspect of that process. So many other things – sight, smell, not to mention memory – feed into our ability to taste, and being able to articulate the flavors that emerge heightens the experience.

 

On this episode, we talk with longtime whiskey writer Fred Minnick about the time and practice it takes to develop your spirits vocabulary, how proper glassware and a good set of “legs” can be as unique as a fingerprint and how stories of people in the whiskey world are equally as important as the liquid that emerges from inside and Around the Barrel.

 

Welcome back to Around the Barrel, the official podcast from the makers of Jack Daniel’s. I’m your host, Lucas Hendrickson. We’ve talked with a lot of people during this show about the process of getting Jack Daniel's Old No. 7 Tennessee whiskey out of Lynchburg, Tennessee and into a glass near you.

 

We probably haven’t spent enough time talking about what to do with it once it’s in your favorite drink delivery device. Fred Minnick, a master of sartorial taste, is also a highly experienced whiskey writer and now content producer with a slew of magazine, book and video creation credits under his stylish belt.

 

He’s also been a longtime judge at spirits contests around the world and has developed and refined his set of signposts of what can make a good whiskey great, not to mention stopping a less than great spirit from ever reaching one’s palate.

 

Fred: Hey, my name is Fred Minnick, and I am a bourbon writer. And, you know, I guess I kind of evolved into more than just writing about bourbon. Now, I have TV shows and I have a podcast where I interview musicians and drink bourbon with them. 

 

And I live in Louisville, Kentucky. Of course, basically the heartbeat of American whiskey. I know Jack Daniel's fans will say, “No, no, no, no. That's not true,” but always remember, Jack Daniel’s is owned by Brown-Forman, a company based in Louisville. But I'm originally from Jones, Oklahoma.

 

Lucas: Fred Minnick, welcome to Around the Barrel. 

 

Fred: Thanks for having me.

 

Lucas: Let's talk about you and your emerging media moguldom here. You know, you've been a freelancer and a staffer for a lot of different whiskey publications and spirit publications around the country, around the world. 

 

Authored a lot of books, but also now doing the multimedia stuff with podcasts and a dedicated YouTube channel, as well as some stuff – Amazon Prime. You have a show on right now with those folks?

 

Fred: Yeah. Amazon Prime, a network called the Spirits Network. And I haven't announced this yet, but I just got a distribution deal that's going to get me on Apple TV and about 15 other what they call OTT channels and also LG and Samsung and stuff.

 

Lucas: Yeah, very cool. So clearly, you know, as part of that, as part of that visual world, you have to develop a visual identity for yourself. 

 

You seem to enjoy ascots. Where did that kind of clothing option come into play for you? And, you know, we'll get to choosing whiskeys. What's the best way to choose an ascot in the 21st century?

 

Fred: Well, to me, the ascot selection process really begins with the material. You know, the majority of them are made out of silk. And let's be honest with you. A 95° humid day in Lynchburg, Tennessee is not a good day for silk. 

 

Lucas: Not so much, no. 

 

Fred: Yeah. Silk makes you sweat a little bit more, feel that heat just a touch more. You know, so I always – it depends on the weather feel and everything, but I got – I started with ascots really when I was a kid. 

 

I loved them. A lot of the TV shows I watched, you know, the main characters wore ascots and I just was – I really dug that. And I didn't even know what they were called. They were never pointed out in the show. I just kinda liked that style. 

 

And so fast forward to when I moved to Kentucky and I'm about to go to the Kentucky Derby. I'm going into places like Von Maur and Target asking if they have any ascots and they're like, “What are you talking about?” 

 

No one knew what an ascot was in these places. And so I was just like, “All right, fine. I'll wear a tie.” And I really wanted to look nice for the Derby and so I gravitated toward that ascot thing. 

 

So, at that time, I was also very heavily into wine. I was writing about wine at a high level. And I was in Italy on a trip and this other wine writer – his name’s Bill Marsano. He was like a wine writing god. He was somebody who kind of helped create the profession. He used to be the editor for U.S. Hemispheres and just an old school curmudgeon style writer. 

 

And my wife was with me on the trip and he's in his mid-sixties I want to say, and he starts hitting on my wife and just completely ignores me. And he's wearing an ascot, you know, and he's completely leaving everybody else in the trip. 

 

And I'm just like, “Man, this guy is so cool, and he hates me.” You know? And we talked a little bit, you know, and I told him how much I love ascots and everything. When I get home from that trip in Italy a couple days later, there was a package for me. 

 

And he had gotten my address and sent me three custom-made ascots that his wife made for me.

 

Lucas: Wow. 

 

Fred: And in his note to me, he said, “Please tell your beautiful wife I said hello.”

 

Lucas: Still just getting in there. Still just trying to make that happen.

 

Fred: I know. It was cute, you know? But really that's kind of how it happened. And I still have my original ascots he gave me. 

 

Lucas: That's really cool. 

 

Fred: It's put me on a hunt since, and the fact is you still cannot find ascots at Target or Von Maur.

 

Lucas: They’re not easily available. 

 

Fred: No. 

 

Lucas: You write and talk a lot about bourbon, just kind of as an umbrella category, but Tennessee whiskey can and does in some ways fall under that idea. What are your thoughts about Tennessee whiskey as a market segment right now? 

 

And, you know, we might want to talk about Jack Daniel's a little bit as far as this goes, but yeah. What are your thoughts, your observations on Tennessee whiskey as a specific type of spirit?

 

Fred: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, the debate is always out there. Is Jack Daniel's a bourbon? Is Tennessee whiskey bourbon? And kind of leading that charge is the North American Free Trade Agreement language and the other, you know, free trade agreement language. And the fact that Jeff Arnett, too, very much says, “We are a bourbon, just different.” 

 

You know, so there's a lot of – like when that stuff comes up, you know, the Lincoln County process – once we can get away from that, once we can get away from that conversation, I think the very realistic point of view I have is that there's not a single product that opens more doors for any American whiskey than Jack Daniel's. 

 

You know? So, there's just getting – you get into markets. Jack Daniel's gets into markets that a brand even as popular as Four Roses, you can only dream of. And if Jack Daniel's can't open the market, then Four Roses arguably may not be able to get into that market.

 

And so Jack Daniel's is able to take a risk in somewhere like Uruguay or Nigeria. And if they get in there and there's a proven market for Jack Daniel's, then suddenly you see Maker's Mark following. You might have a Jim Beam product in there. Well, Maker's is a Jim Beam product, but you know. 

 

So, when I talk about bourbon, kinda as of a collective American whiskey discussion, I think you – I actually do mean bourbon. When I'm talking American whiskey, that's what I'm kind of lumping in: you know, bourbon, rye and Tennessee whiskey. 

 

Five, ten years ago, I used to have fun with this Jack Daniel's bourbon debate, but I'm not a beat a dead horse kind of guy. I just make a point and then I move on with something else. 

 

And I find that if we just – once we can get past that point and we just call everything American whiskey, I think that category has got a momentum. You know, it had an incredible momentum internationally. 

 

Lucas: Sure. 

 

Fred: But it's got a momentum happening here in the States, you know, that could very well keep it going. 

 

Lucas: Sure. Like we've talked about, you are deeply involved in creating a lot of different forms of media right now. 

 

I got on your YouTube channel over the last couple of days and did the deep dive into what’s right now your most recent video, the learn how to taste bourbon video, which I highly recommend even though there's not a Jack Daniel's product on that lineup. That's fine. We'll get past that. 

 

But you do a great job of breaking down, you know, the process that you go through kind of as a professional taster, a competition taster, that kind of thing. And since we're all kind of stuck at home right now in a lot of ways, it's a great little tutorial on how to kind of develop that. 

 

And it's very much a skill and requires practice and repetition, that kind of thing. Break down if you can – you've got a 15 minute video talking about it, but the highlights of that process for people who want to learn how to taste and differentiate and delineate all those flavors that can come from brown liquor.

 

Fred: Well, I'd say, first of all, never forget that we've all been doing the same thing of putting food in our mouth since the moment we were born, you know? So, in that process, you have developed your own taste buds. 

 

Now, here's the thing: tasting is genetic. Smelling is genetic. So, just like I sure in the hell can't run a 4.2 40 – 

 

Lucas: You and me both, brother.

 

Fred: There are some people who do not have – they don't feel – or rather, I believe that you can train your palette, but I do believe that some people have natural palettes and natural noses. 

 

But so some people may be able to be more defined than others, but you can train your palette. And what I like to get people to do is to focus on the things that they like to taste, things they like to eat, things they crave.

 

I mean, I crave an apple pie probably three times a week, so we all have something like that. And by god, when I'm tasting bourbon and I get a little hint of apple pie in there, I know it. You know, so there are flavors that you know. So, in my book, “Bourbon Curious,” I kind of go through some exercises to try and hopefully help people learn how to taste. 

 

And really it comes down to practicing a technique of mindfulness. Now, what are you tasting in a moment? How is it hitting your palate? Is there – does it remind you of a particular memory? You know, our taste buds are often connected to our grandma's kitchens or our mama's favorite meals, going out with our dad at a baseball game and getting some Cracker Jacks. 

 

Our muscle memory of our palette is connected to those memories of our life. And if you can spot all of those memories of the things that you've tasted that have influenced you, by god, you can taste it in the whiskey. And that's kind of – that's my method. Kind of a mindfulness technique.

 

Lucas: Right. But you also break down the idea of finishes as far as, you know, an individual taste into short, medium and long primarily. 

 

How do those finish links serve purposes both positive and negative for those spirits? Is it necessarily that a longer finish is always going to be more representative of a higher quality product, or can a short finish serve a purpose too? 

 

Fred: Oh, you know, definitely. I mean, I like to use a lot of sports analogies. 

 

You know, listen. Wes Welker was by no means the best wide receiver in the game. I mean, but man, if you needed a five yard catch in a pinch, I would argue that there's probably – you know, from Tom Brady to Wes Welker, there was probably not a better five yard pass combo in the history of the game.

 

Stretch that out 30 yards and ooh. I mean, he's back down there. Maybe he's a third stringer on the Arizona Cardinals, depending on the quarterback. But you throw in, you know, Randy Moss and Randy just would catch everything. It was just brilliant. And he stretched the field, and you'd feel like it would be a waste to have him on a five yard pass. 

 

So in that instance, you know, our moods dictate what we want to drink. Now, if you are being analytical and your goal is to determine, “What is the very best bourbon for your palette?” then you got to determine, “What are the most important things for you?” 

 

For me, when I am determining that, finish is probably, you know, neck and neck with the taste. And I want to taste it still on my palette. And some days later, I want to be able to close my eyes and think about how that felt on my palette. 

 

You know, even 10 years since I tasted a 1967 Old Crow chess decanter piece, I can still think about its flavor profile because that taste was so impactful and that finish was just money. 

 

But, you know, so with that said, a long finish does not necessarily mean it's the right thing for you in that moment. Now, if it comes in and it's like water on the pallet and like a supreme pizza on the finish, then you got – what you don’t have there is you don't have balance. 

 

And you always have to keep in mind, too, maybe it's you, the taster. And so if you are tasting something, you're tasting multiple samples and repeatedly they don't have good finishes, you know, maybe you need to step away and just reassess the next day. 

 

So, I'm a big believer in not judging a whiskey based off of one taste. You know, you need three tastes before you kind of give a firm score or firm review. 

 

Now, YouTube. I'm just over there trying to do education and being more entertaining, I guess. But, you know, if I'm doing an actual score or an actual – like this thing is ready for a whiskey of the year competition, then I am much, much different. 

 

You want to taste three times to make sure that, you know, your mood is enough one day and on the next day. And so you gotta be cognizant of that.

 

Lucas: Mhm. And aside from just repetition, what do you think are the best ways for people to develop that vocabulary for what they're tasting, for what they enjoy, for what they wanna, you know, recommend to other people aside from invading somebody's fully fleshed out baking spice rack? 

 

You have to develop those terms, those descriptors, to kind of convey what you're tasting. What's the best way to do that?

 

Fred: Well, you know, I think – I'm actually going to be doing a – I haven't put this out there yet, but I'll be doing a little taste camp thing where hopefully I can help people with that. But the truth is that, you know, there's a ton of tasting notes out there. 

 

I just did a poll on my Twitter about, “Do distiller tasting notes influence your purchase?” and the overwhelming majority, I think it was like 70 percent, said no. And that would be like Jeff Arnett’s writing the tasting notes and they're saying that, “No, no, no, no. We just don't care. They don't have any influence.” 

 

And then people would go on to say, “Actually, I have found that their tasting notes do not match mine whatsoever.”

 

Lucas: Interesting.

 

Fred: And so even, you know, I do a ton of tasting notes and people are like, “Man, I really get that. I really get that.” And some are like, “Man, our palettes are really off. You know, we're just not aligned.”

 

And I'm like, “That's just it, everybody. We're all tasting things differently.” Now, there is no right answer to any of this. There's only your answer. And so to come up with the vocabulary would really be to seek your own palette out a little bit more. 

 

And unfortunately that probably means you're going to put on 50 pounds eating candy bars and vanilla wafers and caramel candies, and that is why – that's the practice I put in. So, the gut I've got, that's my athleticism right there for my palette.

 

Lucas: You suffered for your art. Now it's their turn. 

 

Fred: Yeah. 

 

Lucas: Along those same lines, what are the kinds of things – what are the most prominent off flavors for whiskey right now? The things you want to avoid. And how do you pick them out? How do you identify them?

 

Especially cause not everybody's going to know what, you know, say freshly poured asphalt tastes like. Something like that, what's the best way to kind of make those descriptors work for you?

 

Fred: Yeah. So, I would say that first of all, I'm not a distiller, so I'm not someone who can say, “Okay, it tastes like dirty socks. You need to cut back your fermentation by a day and lower the temperature on the cook.” 

 

Lucas: Sure. 

 

Fred: So, there's some things that you always want to look out for. You want to look out for things that – a lot of it's on the nose. If you smell like it's like overly alcohol, like it's a rubbing alcohol thing – I mean, the nose is meant to kind of protect you from tasting something. 

 

So, if you smell something that's really off or it makes you feel like you might get a headache after smelling it, that happens to people. Do not taste it.

 

I mean, you're not me, and you don't have to. You know, I have to taste those things, but you don't have to taste it if it smells off, like it's got a gasoline smell. And there are hints of gasoline, like some scotches will have that, but if it's overwhelmingly like you're at the pump and the vapors are coming out, don't drink it. 

 

If it smells like turpentine or some kind of cleaning solution, don't drink it. Those are kind of some telltale ones. Now, when you smell something like dirty socks or your gym buddy’s armpit cause he doesn't bathe, you know, that could be something else. 

 

I'm not saying go and then, you know, up to your buddy and say, “Hey, do you mind if I get a whiff of your armpits so I can work on training my whiskey nose?”

 

Lucas: Exactly. 

 

Fred: I'm not saying that. That'd be weird, but you're – there's a lot of stink in some styles of American whiskey that actually, when you taste it, you just realize, “Oh, this is like dirt.” You know, it has a dirt flavor. And then after the dirt, there's a big ole rye bread. 

 

And so sometimes that's just a style, like Wild Turkey is a great one that has a real funky style. Jack Daniel's has a banana note that if you don't like bananas, you're going to hate Jack Daniel's. 

 

So, every distillery has one of – you know, they may have a product with one of those notes that somebody would perceive as an off note. So, in terms of on the palette, you know, I would cover  the nose and some things that might be off on the palette. 

 

The big one for me is wood when it's over-oaked, and that will come off as a real raw bitterness. And you just know. You just know. And if you need to go lick a fence post to find out what that wood tastes like, then go do it, because it'll save you from spending a lot of money on a lot of bad whiskeys. 

 

Lucas: Sure. So yeah, again, you're creating on so many different platforms right now. Talk to us about the current state of Bourbon+. What's going on with that brand? Where is it headed in 2020 and 2021?

 

Fred: Well, I think, you know, the point of Bourbon+ is to be kind of like a high end luxury field of a bourbon magazine. And COVID basically – you know, it changed everything. We went from being in all the distilleries and Whole Foods to everything being shut down. 

 

So, and that was – the business part of it is definitely interesting. And, you know, thank goodness for our strong subscriber base. But the goal is to continue telling the incredible stories of people who make a difference in whiskey. And some, you know, you may not even know. They're kind of out there and they're doing their thing without any kind of accolade. 

 

And that's kinda what I live for a lot. We try to find people and tell the story. And even if they're a household name, we try to tell the stories that you don't know. 

 

Lucas: Right. 

 

Fred: So, my whole vision with Bourbon+ was to show people the inside of bourbon but without focusing on the liquid. You know, saying – everything else I do, it's just like, “Is that whiskey good? Is that whiskey good? Is that whiskey good?” And as a human being, I wanted to tell the story of people. 

 

And so it's difficult to mix in the story of people and science and all that with the quintessential, “Is that whiskey good?” And so that's why they kind of live apart. 

 

Lucas: Sure. So, say it's the end of the day. You spent an entire day thinking about the world of whiskey, but you want just kind of a wind down end of the day cocktail. What do you turn to first? What's within the most easy reach for you?

 

Fred: Is this after I've survived the attack of my 6 year old, and I changed the diaper of my 1.5 year old? 

 

Lucas: It might be during, depending on the state of trying to get one to go to bed. I have an eight year old. I get it.

 

Fred: That’s the thing. Everyone’s always like – they have this imagination that I go home and I sit in my leather back chair.

 

Lucas: Well, again, part of it is the ascot, dude, but you know.

 

Fred: Yeah. Like, “No, I avoid 15 Legos. I’m being attacked.” You know?

 

Lucas: Been there. Do that.

 

Fred: It's funny. But you know, these days I am a sucker for a high ball, and as a family, we actually did the calculations of this. We go through 10 cases of soda water a week. So, you know, like the bublé stuff, the bubbly stuff. So, there's like no calories and there's like no sugar. It's just grapefruit and seltzer. And we just – I mean, we love that stuff. 

 

Lucas: Right. 

 

Fred: And so I just get – I actually make a high ball with one of your sister brands quite a bit, the Old Forester Rye. And then I sip that neat as well. So, that has been my kind of fun go-to over the last six months. Yeah. But it's also easy. When you have kids – 

 

Lucas: A small child, easy is best. Less is more. 

 

Fred: And that cocktail shaker just looks like too much work. 

 

Lucas: You gotta rinse it out and put it in the dishwasher or something like that. You know, it was going to spray everywhere. 

 

Fred: Exactly. I mean, if you don’t have kids, you don't get it. But if you have kids, you’re like, “Oh my god, I get that.” 

 

Lucas: I have a feeling there'll be a lot of people nodding in agreement listening to this, at least I hope so. 

 

Fred: I mean, our entire life right now is dictated by, “Okay, how long can we sit here before the scream starts?” And we'll have dinner and then we will have like five backups. You know, Oscar will take a bite of it like, “Oh, I don't like that. I don't want mac and cheese tonight.” “But you just asked for it.” “Well, I know.” So, we get a hot dog. 

 

Lucas: That was five minutes ago. That's an entire lifetime, in some cases, of their attention span. No, I totally get it. I’ve been right there with you. 

 

Fred: I wouldn’t change it for the world. 

 

Lucas: Nope. Not at all. Not at all. So, give us a quick roundup of all the places that you would want people to find you if they've enjoyed our conversation and want to kind of continue to learn more about the Fred Minnick world. What are the socials? Where are the places that they can follow along with your journey?

 

Fred: So, you know, this is a podcast, so we'll start with the podcast. I've got The Fred Minnick Show, which is available wherever podcasts are, where I interview musicians like Darryl Hall from Hall and Oates, David Byrne from Talking Heads, Clown from Slipknot, Ashley McBryde, whom I know is a big fan of Jack Daniel's. Chase Rice was on my show. Lee Brice. 

 

So, a lot of really, really big names in music. And we sit down and we sip whiskey and we just talk about their lives and do a little bit of what you're doing here, it just has a bit of a music slant with, you know, talking about the brown goods. So, that's The Fred Minnick Show: music and whiskey. 

 

The other podcast I'm on’s called Bourbon Pursuit, and that is where we basically dissect the bourbon industry inside out and talk to great bourbon folks, to include Jeff Arnett a time or two.

 

And I've got a segment on there called Above the Char where I kinda – it's kinda like, “Get off my lawn,” segment or it's a combo, “Get off my lawn,” or, “Come on, guys. We can do better than this.” 

 

Lucas: Right. 

 

Fred: You know, that kind of thing. And then obviously Bourbon+’s been out since 2018. Go to bourbonplus.com for that to get a subscription. It's a quarterly magazine. You can also find it at Barnes and Noble, Whole Foods, Books-A-Million and liquor stores across the country. 

 

And Spirits Network – I've got a show over there called Frontier Filmmakers, where I pair whiskey to independent films, including one called “California Typewriter” with Tom Hanks. That was great. Love that film. 

 

And I'm really active over at fredminnick.com on the blogging side. And then you can, on YouTube, just search for my name, Fred Minnick. I do live tastings every Wednesday and Friday at 6:30, and tastings and other things drop every other day. 

 

I mean, I'm not – the live tastings are the only thing I'm consistent on with that one. But in the socials, just search for my name, Fred Minnick. And it's M-I-N-N-I-C-K. I think that's it.

 

Lucas: That's what's on my sheet in front of me, so there you go. Well, Fred, again, thank you for your time. Thank you for your work in this area, and we hope to catch up with you again very, very soon. Thanks for joining us Around the Barrel.

 

Fred: Absolutely. Well, next time, let's crack into the barrel and sip some whiskey.

 

Lucas: Absolutely. What a great idea that is. Thank you, sir.

 

Fred: Cheers.

 

Lucas: Around the Barrel is the official podcast of the Jack Daniel Distillery. Follow the podcast on the web at jackdaniels.com/podcast. 

 

If you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you gather your on-demand audio. Always remember, with great podcasts and great whiskey, please enjoy responsibly. Join us next time for more conversations Around the Barrel.

 

Your friends at Jack Daniel’s remind you to drink responsibly. Jack Daniel’s and Old No. 7 are registered trademarks, Copyright 2020 Jack Daniel’s. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof, distilled and bottled by Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around the Barrel is intended for listeners 21 years of age and older.