Around the Barrel - Transcript: Ep023 Nelson Eddy
Nelson Eddy: But you know, the very best feature of a Jack Daniel's bottle is this.
[Sound of a bottle of Jack Daniel’s being opened and poured into a glass]
Lucas Hendrickson: Words, images, physical objects. These things and more help tell stories everyday, and for a company well into its second century, these stories form the core of how best to shape its future. But it never hurts to take a look into its past.
On this episode, we talk with Jack Daniel's historian Nelson Eddy about a new series of products that reach back into the company's archives, bringing forward a look and feel of a bygone era.
We dissect the imagery found on the new Legacy Edition bottles as well as how today's technology can be used on every new bottle of Old No. 7 to bring Mr. Jack’s story to life ... Around the Barrel.
Welcome back to Around the Barrel, the official podcast from the makers of Jack Daniel's. I'm your host, Lucas Hendrickson.
We've spent a fair amount of time on this show talking about icons, and there's no denying the black and white label and square bottles of Jack Daniel's Old No. 7 Tennessee Whiskey are some of the most familiar icons in the spirits world.
But Mr. Jack’s now world-famous whiskey wasn't always presented in this form. The square bottles weren't introduced until very close to the turn of the 20th century, and the company's archives are full of different label styles used before settling on the one so recognizable today.
A new line of limited edition bottles just released takes a look at these historic pre-prohibition labels, and Jack Daniel's company historian Nelson Eddy helps shine a light on where these labels came from, when they were used, and how they've been modernized to continue to tell the Old No. 7 story today.
Nelson: My name is Nelson Eddy and I'm the Jack Daniel's historian. I've worked for Jack Daniel's for 32 years and I'm looking forward to year 33.
Lucas: Nelson Eddy, welcome back to Around the Barrel.
Nelson: It's good to be here.
Lucas: Good to see you again. Good to talk about some new innovations in packaging, new old innovations in packaging. We've talked a lot on this show about the iconic nature of the square bottle, the label itself, and it being one of the most recognizable brands around the world.
The company is honoring that tradition by reaching back into the archives with this Legacy Edition series, the first two of which are on store shelves now. The first one came out in late 2018, the second one came out early this spring and some others are in the works. Tell us a little bit about the origin of this project but then also the labels that are out now and what we can expect in the future.
Nelson: Sure. You know, we're living in a time when people place a great deal of importance on authenticity. Companies want to have authenticity and people are looking for authenticity. In the whiskey business, history has always been an important part of the product. Ironically, there are a lot of things out there that they’re kind of coming up with history. A lot of things purport to have a history and tell their story, and it's really not true.
Well, Jack Daniel's is one of those brands where it really does have a history. As bold and rich as the whiskey is, I think the history is even richer and bolder. Hence, they have a historian to talk about that.
This legacy series is really just to underscore the history of this product in a fun way, in a way people can enjoy and collectors will enjoy, to showcase different labels early on for Jack Daniel's. It lets people know, “Hey, this is an authentic brand. It's the whiskiest whiskey. It's the real deal. And here's some proof.”
Lucas: Yeah. So, the iconic black label that we all know and recognize instantly, how long has that been in use, and how many major iterations of that have there been over the decades?
Nelson: Let me see if I can talk about that one at a time and see if I can remember all of that. Well, the iconic black label goes back to around 1910. Jack will die shortly after. Jack was ill. He'd kicked the safe. He lost his leg in an operation and he was ailing. He lets his distillery go to his two nephews, and one of those is Lem Matlow. Some people think that the black label was Lem's way to honor his uncle Jack.
Prior to that, Old No. 7 – which was trademarked around July 1876, so it's the hundredth anniversary of the country when Old No. 7 happens. People think prior to that black label, and this will confuse a lot of people who know that we have a black label and a green label, but prior to that black label, Old No. 7 was in a green label. But Lem makes it a black label and we think it's to honor his uncle Jack.
Lucas: In what ways? The referred to kind of way Mr. Jack dressed and his own personal style reflected itself in that label.
Nelson: It could be. I mean, black is just a serious color, and those were serious times for Mr. Jack. Those were going to be real serious times in the state of Tennessee, too, because the state goes dry. The election is held in 1909 and in 1910 it's dry. So, about the time that label’s coming out, it's a very sober time for the whiskey industry.
Lucas: Sure. The business is going to change pretty dramatically. Again, to your knowledge, how many times has that iconic black label undergone some major changes leading up to what we know and expect from it today?
Nelson: If it had undergone major changes, it wouldn't be iconic.
Lucas: Sure. That's true.
Nelson: The timeless nature of that black label is what's made it iconic. There have been slight evolutions, but there have been no revolutions. It's the black label.
I mean, after a bottle of Old No. 7 Black Label Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey, the next most popular product from the Jack Daniel's distillery is a black T-shirt with that label on it. So, the label is is very powerful.
Lucas: Yeah. It's set in as much stone as it can be. Both of these labels for the Legacy Editions come at it from a very different standpoint than what we're familiar with with the iconic black label.
The first edition – more of a pea green label on it. Old No. 7 pronounced inside the kind of center visual interest on that label, sitting on top of a red background, but the rest of the typography completely different than what we know today.
Version two – even further down the path. Still on a black label, but with red highlights, and Tennessee whiskey being highlighted in the center of that label. Again, the Jack Daniel word mark, the No. 7 – completely different from what we expect from a Jack Daniel's bottle.
Where did these labels come from? When did they emerge? Tell us the history behind them.
Nelson: Sure. Now, these labels are pre-prohibition. People go, “Wow, you've got so many more whiskies today other than Old No. 7. What are you doing?”
We're kind of paying a nod to Mr. Jack, who had a lot of different labels, and Lem had a lot of different labels. People don't generally know that, but these are pre-prohibition labels. These two particular labels were not designed by Jack Daniel or the Jack Daniel Distillery. His sole sales agent was a company out of Nashville, Tennessee, called W.T. & C.D. Gunter.
In about 1890, Jack was signed on with them. That was before Jack Daniel bottled his own whiskey. That won't happen till 1895. So, prior to then, and even during then, while he starts bottling, this sole sales agent, the Gunters, bottle it and they have these labels produced.
Now, we’re not sure if they designed these labels or if – you know, Nashville is known for its printing industry – a printing house designed the labels for them. But it was on under Gunter's direction. We know that.
There's some interesting things. I think this first label that we're talking about – It didn't say “Jack Daniel's.” It just said “Jack Daniel.” There was no apostrophe s on it.
The other thing is it's colorful. We think of Jack Daniel's as black and white. There's more color in maybe a Tennessee Honey or Tennessee Fire. We go, “Wow, that's Jack Daniel's?” Well, that's pre-prohibition, and it's a little bit of a nod, too, that when Jack did start bottling his whiskey, his first label was green. It's a little nod to that as well.
Lucas: And with the second Legacy Edition bottle, from a topography standpoint there's really not anything on there that is reminiscent of the Jack Daniel's label that we know and recognize today. It's a completely different layout. Old No.7 is kind of in the center of visual interest, if you will, but that topography of Jack Daniel's is completely different. Talk about its origin as you've been able to uncover it.
Nelson: Yes. Again, it would have been the Gunter company involvement in these pre-prohibition labels. We can tell maybe Jack didn't get to approve or see this label before it went to print because back in his day or in Lem's day – we're thinking this label is probably after 1909 but before the distillery shutters its doors with national prohibition.
The “Jack Daniel's” on it had the “s” but no apostrophe. This is a really unique label. It's got an anchor with a rope on it, and people are going, “What's this nautical symbol on a bottle of Jack Daniel's?”
Well, again, Jack may not have designed it. Nashville is a river town, and of course the river traffic was big. That particular anchor and rope is over 500 years old.
The British Royal Navy and the U.S. Navy have used a very similar mark throughout their history, and it means steadfast or firm. That's what anchors do. They're a symbol of steadfastness and firm. And guess what. It was a perfect symbol for Jack Daniel's because of it's unchanging nature, it’s timeless nature. It's something you can count on. So, I think that's an awfully good symbol for a Jack Daniel's whiskey.
Lucas: Absolutely. Where would these products have been sold physically in the United States at that point? Was it a pretty limited footprint? And were those labels in the market at the same time?
Nelson: They could have possibly been in the market at the same time. We know on the black label of the two – there's the green label and black label of these legacy series labels – the original of the black label that we have carried a line that said, “For medicinal use only.”
We know that's probably because there was a gun battle in the streets of Nashville that caused Tennessee to go dry for a full ten years before the nation does. So, this whiskey is probably bottled after 1909. It's really enacted in 1910. It's probably bottled after that.
That label may be a little newer than the green label, but they could have possibly both been out there. Yeah, it kind of helps us date it by that little line about medicinal use.
Lucas: Right. Again, was it mainly just sold in Tennessee? Or around the Lynchburg area as far as it could be carted from place to place?
Nelson: Well after 1904, with the St. Louis World's Fair win, Jack Daniel's is picking up a little notoriety. Really, the Gunter brothers, Charles and William, have a lot of hand in getting this product out.
They're advertising that they're the sole agent for Jack Daniel's in newspapers. It's going to Kentucky. It's going to northern Alabama, probably Mississippi and part of Georgia, those contiguous states around Tennessee and even as far as Evansville, Indiana. That far away, Jack Daniel’s is known.
That's because when Tennessee goes dry in 1909, enacted, and then it happens in 1910, the Gunters will move their operation up to Evansville about 150 miles away from Nashville. So, we know the product is being distributed up there as well.
Lucas: Yeah. What other pieces of symbolism or hidden meaning are in these labels that you're a fan of?
Nelson: Well, one thing I really like – this one of the slight evolutions that have taken place over the years – the side panels on both of these bottles, there is some distillery art on the label that goes back at least to Lem, if not farther. That's pre-prohibition, and it’s of the distillery. If you look real closely, what kind of still is that? Can you see?
Lucas: My eyes are failing me right now.
Nelson: It's not a column still. It's a pot still. That's how Jack would have started. When he started, he started with a pot still, though he’ll very quickly go to a column still. It's not that Jack was mass producing and had to have a column still. It's just that because of the continuous run nature of a column still, your product is more consistent, where a pot still from batch to batch can vary wildly. You have to be very careful of that.
Jack Daniel's was always known for the consistency of his whiskey in his day. It was the column still and charcoal mellowing that helped him do that.
Lucas: Was this a piece of art that had been in the archives or was this commissioned to reflect what that looked like?
Nelson: No. It may have been cleaned up over the years a little bit, but that is the artwork that goes back to Lem's day, if not to Jack’s, of the drawing of the distillery. That's the artwork that used to be on the letterhead of the company.
Lucas: Wow. That's tremendous. What else can we can we dive into and look at on the label? Each of them are individually numbered, so it's certainly a collector's edition of Old No. 7. It's also a slightly different proof point.
Nelson: Yep. It’s 86 proof and each are individually numbered. It's a limited run. You can go to jackdaniels.com to register your bottle and get a certificate of authenticity.
Lucas: Yeah. Other than obviously trying to honor the visual tradition of the company, where did this project come from and what was the identifying factor that made people go, “Let's throw these out there”?
Nelson: I just think it accents the specialness of the brand and the stories surrounding the brand. That black label, even though it was done by their sales agent back around the turn of the century or a little bit later, around 1909 or 1910, it's the first hint of a black label that we’re aware of. You can tell by the artwork. It's not the filigree of today, but there's that ornateness and twisting of some of the graphics.
We don't know. Did Lem look at that and get an idea from that? Or did Jack look at that and get an idea from that? We don't know, but that black label and that filigree, some people call it the pirate flag of Jack Daniel’s. It's timeless. I don't know that rock and roll would have ever adopted this brand with a green label on it. That black label on that old-time filigree fit in with that scene.
Lucas: Right. Part of me also wonders about the cost effective nature of a black and white logo as well, because it’s a little easier to produce in mass quantities. The ornateness of the Legacy Edition number two – there's a lot going on in that in that label with the various shades of red in it and the gold trim on it as well.
Nelson: Look here. You've got a bottle. I would say this is probably from the 60s.
Lucas: This is from the personal collection of our technical producer, Clark Buckner.
Nelson: Look right there.
Lucas: Yeah, there's that exact same – is it a drawing or an etching?
Nelson: Well, on the letterhead it was an etching, but it was a drawing originally. There, it's just in black and white, and on these Legacy Editions it's enhanced with a little gold foil.
Lucas: Yeah. Obviously with the Legacy Editions, there's been some interesting label innovations happen with the company over the past year or so, especially with the release of the AR, augmented reality, enhanced labels that are out on the market right now. Can you talk a little bit about how that project emerged?
Nelson: That's technology that really takes something that's timeless, like Jack Daniel's, and brings it to life for a new generation. In that case, I said one of the things about Jack Daniel's is it has stories that are true. That enhancement brings the label literally to life. It pops off the page so to speak. It tells the story of the brand, of the man, of the distillery.
Our label has always had hints. You could tell it was made in Tennessee. You knew it was from Lynchburg. Years ago, we even kept track of our population by the label. The label has always told the story, and this just does it in a bolder way.
Lucas: Yeah. Those apps can be found in the Google Play Store and Apple's App Store as well.
I think it just goes to underscore the ways in which the company wants to give its fans, its friends, not only a consistent experience with the liquid they're getting out of those bottles, but also new and different ways to interact with the brand and immerse themselves not only in the history, but also the future of the brand. It's something pretty unique in the marketplace.
Nelson: It's really interesting, and we can't really brag a lot about what we do at Jack Daniel's because most of what we do, Jack started. We're just continuing. The black label, the square bottle – that was Jack and Lem and we've just carried that on.
He promoted his whiskey with music and with hospitality at his home, and he had two bars on the square – I can't imagine two bars in the town with, at the time, probably less than 300 people – but he did all of those things to promote his whiskey, and guess what. That's just what we're doing today.
We're big into music. We love hospitality. We're out at the bars. This is just another way to take something that's timeless and promote it the way Jack did, by telling stories and bringing it to life.
Lucas: Yeah. There are a few more of these Legacy Edition products coming down the path. What can fans, friends, collectors expect to see from those images?
Nelson: Well, plans are always, you know, they're plans, and they could change. Right now, we’re looking at possibly five, all pre-prohibition, and one that may even look like 1895. So, people who knew what the bottle looked like in 1895 when Jack first started bottling.
This whole idea of bottling, and we're glad it got into a square bottle – I was up in bourbon country – every once in a while I have to cross the line and go into bourbon country – I was driving through bourbon country and I picked up a postcard and it was celebrating bourbon country. They had a bottle of whiskey on it, and I did a double take. There was no label on that bottle. They'd taken the label off, but it was a square bottle. It was a Jack Daniel's bottle without its label. That square bottle has come to represent whiskey. So that was a nice way for them to pay us a compliment.
Until we charcoal mellow it, Jack Daniel's is a bourbon, so it's not an insult at all. Bourbon is a very high standard. We just do bourbon one better by charcoal mellowing.
Lucas: Sure. Where can collectors find these Legacy Edition products at this point?
Nelson: They're available throughout the U.S. and in certain markets around the world.
Lucas: Now I'm curious, being a longtime Tennessee resident, about this gun battle that happened that spurred the state to go dry before the rest of the country. What's the legacy behind that particular event?
Nelson: Yeah, that was back in the days when politicians settled disagreements with a gun. I'm not sure we're not getting back to that, but that's about as political as I'll get.
Lucas: Fair enough.
Nelson: Back in 1909, we've got the Hermitage Hotel being built in downtown Nashville near the capital. There is a newspaper editor and he is against whiskey. He's very pro dry. His name is Edward Carmack.
And he's standing there. You know what guys do. He's standing there watching the building being built. So he's standing there, and there's two politicians, father and son, who he has been writing about. They're pro whiskey. They're wets. He's dry. He's been writing scathing commentary in his newspaper, this newspaper editor Edward Carmack.
They take exception to that and they draw guns. There's different reports on who fired first. The dry guy probably fired first, but their marksmanship was better. The editor dies.
The public is outraged. Things were brewing, the dry forces were mounting anyhow, but this was the last straw. The state votes dry.
If you go to the Tennessee State Capitol today, out in front, there is a statue to Edward Carmack. Underneath that statue is a tunnel so that you can go in at ground level and take an elevator up to the Capitol.
That tunnel was built and it's called the Motlow Tunnel. So, you have the statue to the drys being undercut by the Motlow Tunnel. It was Lem Motlow who served at the state house and got the laws changed so he could again make whiskey in Lynchburg, Tennessee.
Lucas: Was Tennessee the very first state to enact a statewide prohibition that way?
Nelson: That I don't know. That's an interesting question. During Tennessee prohibition beginning in 1909, 1910, Lynchburg closes down. Lem will go to St. Louis and make whiskey.
He's also got a brother by the name of Spoon Motlow down in Alabama, and he'll make whiskey down in Alabama, but Alabama goes dry before national prohibition. So, other states did do this, but I'm not sure whether Tennessee was the first.
Lucas: Right. Nelson, we love talking with you on the podcast. We’re glad to have you back on season two. Look forward to talking to you again many more times as we go along with the show. But, again, thanks for joining us Around the Barrel.
Nelson: Hey, I enjoy this. Who wouldn't enjoy being Around the Barrel, especially because we have whiskey.
One thing I will add about these particular bottles – people will buy these to collect. I recommend you buy two: one to drink and one to keep.
Lucas: Absolutely. Thanks, Nelson.
Around the Barrel is the official podcast of the Jack Daniel Distillery. Follow the podcast on the web at jackdaniels.com/podcast. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you gather your on demand audio.
Always remember, with great podcasts and great whiskey, please enjoy responsibly. Join us next time for more conversations Around the Barrel.
Your friends at Jack Daniel’s remind you to drink responsibly. Jack Daniel’s and Old No. 7 are registered trademarks. Copyright 2019, Jack Daniel’s. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. Distilled and bottled by Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around the Barrel is intended for listeners 21 years of age and older.
